A different kind of CVT problem

rattlenbang
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A different kind of CVT problem

Post by rattlenbang » Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:44 pm

I bought this 2007 as a cheap project knowing that it needs a tranny, and I have access to a used one, but before I toss this thing, I'm wondering about diagnosing the problem a little more. It came in with no forward or reverse. It will sometimes go into gear with a good solid thunk, but slips, like the forward or reverse clutches aren't getting pressure. With high rpm you can get it to move a little but not much. All it gives on scan is the P0701 code. Just in case I decided to check the filters and fluids, and they were horrible - the high pressure filter had a couple mm thick mud on it, and the fluid that came out was as black as really bad engine oil and stunk to high heaven. Likely hadn't been changed in many years and even more miles.
I thought this might have been it, but after filter changes and new fluid, no difference - still barely moves.
On a side note the local jobber could only get 6 litres of fluid in, so it's low, just below the bottom hole in the dipstick, but from what I understand, you get harsh shifting if your fluid is low.

Any suggestions as to what would cause the tranny to lose both forward and reverse? What's interesting is the wrench light comes on before you even put it into gear so it knows something's not right with the unit even when it's in park. The car has 240 k, and is an AWD Limited.


xvert
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by xvert » Sat Dec 02, 2017 6:48 am

It seems to me that the code P0701 is a common code, it always accompanies a more specific problem code (pressure, speed sensors, etc.). Perhaps your OBD-reader does not fully read the PCM. Try to read your PCM data at idle and compare Image

rattlenbang
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by rattlenbang » Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:27 am

I wondered that too. But at the same time, I've read when that's all the dealers get as well.

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Africa_FS_07
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Africa_FS_07 » Sat Dec 02, 2017 10:51 pm

rattlenbang wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:44 pm
.....Any suggestions as to what would cause the tranny to lose both forward and reverse? What's interesting is the wrench light comes on before you even put it into gear so it knows something's not right with the unit even when it's in park. The car has 240 k, and is an AWD Limited.
+1 xvert.

Your code reader apparently cannot read the critical underlying codes from the TCM, which the generic P0701 is indicating to you.

you did not mention if there's a noise in P and N, and what the noise sounds like.

From your last paragraph, i think you have a dead Mechatronics unit (valve body). I've seen that behavior in another Freestyle with a dead mechatronics.
i wonder who "Voodoo Bob of the Dead Poets Society" is hounding now.....:mrgreen:

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Splicer
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Splicer » Sun Dec 03, 2017 7:25 am

rattlenbang wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 11:44 pm

On a side note the local jobber could only get 6 litres of fluid in, so it's low, just below the bottom hole in the dipstick, but from what I understand, you get harsh shifting if your fluid is low.

I'm trying to understand why the local "jobber" (mechanic?) couldn't fill to the correct level? You KNOW the level is low but you proceed anyway? Just having a hard time wrapping my head around that one too.

Also, you DID use CVT fluid and NOT trans fluid, yes? I hope?
2007 Freestyle Limited FWD 288,000+ miles 8)
2004 Escape XLT FWD 218,000+ :)
2006 Escape Hybrid AWD 116,000+ :mrgreen:

rattlenbang
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by rattlenbang » Sun Dec 03, 2017 9:32 am

LOL I meant the local jobber could only source 6 litres of the valvoline CVT fluid. The stuff is pretty damned rare on the west coast here. Dealer fluid is almost $30/bottle. But I eventually found more, made sure it was at the approximate level.
No, there are no bad noises coming from the box.
It's a strange one because there are times when it suddenly seems to work fine, but if you shut it off to clear the wrench code with the scan tool, when you restart it suddenly the car won't move again. Also as the fluid warms up it slips more.
But after investing $300 in fluids and filters it seems like a losing game to then drop another couple hundred in a better scan tool just in case there are more codes, or another 300 in a used valve body. I ordered a used tranny from a wrecker 700 km away for $1000 (these are hard units to find) and I'll swap it in next week. I hate throwing away things that can be fixed, but after awhile you just end up chasing your tail.
I'll probably pull the valve body when all this is done to see if I find anything amiss.

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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by xvert » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:20 am

.. I ordered a used tranny from a wrecker 700 km away for $1000 (these are hard units to find) and I'll swap it in next week....
I recommend immediately replacing the input shaft O-ring (under the torque converter). This is a weak point of the cvt. This simple and cheap job can save you a lot of time and money in the future. Part number 5F9Z7H497EA. https://www.ebay.com/itm/NEW-OEM-PLANET ... V-&vxp=mtr
But if I were you, I would also replace the input shaft bearings, check the input shaft, replace the repair kit, replace the torque converter friction linings (in a specialized workshop). All this is easier than removing / installing the CVT

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jas88
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by jas88 » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 am

But if I were you, I would also replace the input shaft bearings, check the input shaft, replace the repair kit, replace the torque converter friction linings (in a specialized workshop). All this is easier than removing / installing the CVT
Please do explain how you would replace the input shaft bearings or the input shaft o-ring without removing the CVT?
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Mike51Merc
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Mike51Merc » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:44 am

I think what he's saying is that R&R of the CVT is the hardest part. Everything else is easy, so you should do it all while the unit is out.

rattlenbang
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by rattlenbang » Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:41 am

Thanks for the advice. Replace the repair kit - do you mean the filters? And rebuild the torque convertor? Are they problematic as well?

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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by xvert » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:18 am

Mike51Merc wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:44 am
I think what he's saying is that R&R of the CVT is the hardest part. Everything else is easy, so you should do it all while the unit is out.
Thank you, Mike. :) I should not have participated in the discussion with such knowledge of English .. But I remembered my experience and decided to advise.
I read many times about the damaged input shaft O-ring, but when I changed my cvt to a used one, I did not check its condition. As it turned out later, in vain. Therefore, when I was repairing the cvt second time, I changed all the parts that I could find. My mechanic advised also to repair the torque converter. But now I am confident in the reliability of my car and I can safely travel in sparsely populated areas.
rattlenbang wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:41 am
Replace the repair kit - do you mean the filters?
Kit gasket overhaul 5F9Z-7153A (MTK-122900)
rattlenbang wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 8:41 am
And rebuild the torque convertor? Are they problematic as well?
No problem, But if you drive with a damaged O-ring, then because of the low pressure in the torque converter, the friction lining slips and abrades. The glue to which the friction lining is glued falls into the oil channels and clogs them. Therefore, all the workshops that repair automatic transmissions in my city always open and repair the torque converters.

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Splicer
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Splicer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:28 am

I honestly didn't know that a torque converter COULD be opened and "repaired". That's why is one goes out, it is just replaced. Interesting.
2007 Freestyle Limited FWD 288,000+ miles 8)
2004 Escape XLT FWD 218,000+ :)
2006 Escape Hybrid AWD 116,000+ :mrgreen:

Mike51Merc
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Mike51Merc » Tue Dec 05, 2017 9:37 am

You can just get a replacement torque converter at a reasonable price.

rattlenbang
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by rattlenbang » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:07 pm

So I got the tranny out today (from the top, despite all the naysayers online who say it can't be done) and the torque converter seal was missing. Does that sometimes fall off when the torque converter comes off or does that mean it's failed? Could that cause a slipping transmission? I didn't see anything online that connected those two events.

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Splicer
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Re: A different kind of CVT problem

Post by Splicer » Tue Dec 05, 2017 7:47 pm

How did you pull a transmission out from the top without pulling the motor with it?
2007 Freestyle Limited FWD 288,000+ miles 8)
2004 Escape XLT FWD 218,000+ :)
2006 Escape Hybrid AWD 116,000+ :mrgreen:

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