Many trouble codes.....

suziandmikec
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Many trouble codes.....

Post by suziandmikec » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:12 pm

(Forgot to mention in original post, it's a 2005 freestyle all wheel drive)

My family's only car just died in our driveway. It was driving good then I turned into my driveway and drove over some piled ice and immediately the abs and traction control lights came on. I stopped the car and put it in park and when I let off the brake pedal the lights went out. They only come on when I press the brake pedal. I was able to drive it into the garage and turned it off, then attempted to restart it. It tries to turn over but then it's as if the starter is doing the rapid clicking noise like when the solenoid is going out (know what I mean?)

Trouble shooting I've done:
1. Disconnected battery momentarily, still won't start.
2. Disconnected battery for 30 minutes to reset computer, still won't start
3. Checked all fuses that seem relevant and all good.
4. Read in owners manual about fuel pump cutoff switch tripping over bumps, does not appear to be tripped and still doesn't start.

I've been all over Google and so far I'm leaning towards a wheel speed sensor but I have no code reader right now so I can't tell for sure. This also doesn't account for my idiot lights only coming on when the brake is pressed or for the engine not starting.

Like I said, this is our only car and we have a 23 mile trip to work and school at 6:45 tomorrow morning. I know it's not getting fixed tonight but expedience is crucial for us. Also don't have fundage for a tow to the dealer or a nearby shop, I'm technical enough to work on it myself. Thanks for a speedy reply!
Last edited by suziandmikec on Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:58 am, edited 4 times in total.


suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Mon Feb 18, 2019 7:18 pm

Shoot! Forgot to mention it's a 2005 freestyle all wheel drive

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jas88
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by jas88 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:53 am

It tries to turn over but then it's as if the starter is doing the rapid clicking noise like when the solenoid is going out (know what I mean?)
So you are saying it cranks slowly for a second or two and then starts clicking? If so, that is not a wheel sensor or anything like that. You have a problem in your starting circuit like bad battery or bad cable connection, something like that.
2006 SE Silver w/Slate cloth

ds32928
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by ds32928 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:33 am

You can get basic DTC's, trouble codes, to appear in the info window in the instrument cluster. Have a way to write them down if any appear. Its called engineering mode. To do it, hold the trip reset shaft in the face of the cluster all the way in as you turn the key to the "on" position, no need to start the vehicle. Keep holding the reset in, and the info window will show the normal setting for a few seconds, then will change to "engineering mode" readout. Let go of the reset shaft at that time. It should start with gauge test, sweep all the needles, when that stops you can press the reset shaft repeatedly to see things like "cluster light test", press slowly until you see "DTC codes" and it will either say no codes or give you the code(s) its stored. Let us know if you see any codes and what they are.

suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:52 am

I had the car on the battery charger all night and will try again after work, gonna have a code reader by then too. I'll also try engineering mode.

Some of my coworkers are telling me that it's my battery but I'm having trouble aligning that with the TC and ABS lights when I press the brake pedal.

ds32928
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by ds32928 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:31 am

No need for engineering mode now that you have a code reader. Strange things like no start might not all be related to one event. After driving over a ice ridge, hitting the bottom of the vehicle I would wonder that the ice ridge may have damaged a rubber brake line, giving the AB and TC light when stepping on the brake. You mentioned the ice ridge, so I guess you scraped over it? See what the codes say.

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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by brad e » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:35 am

Hi suziandmikec,

Don't rule out the battery. I have four Ford vehicles, and the symptoms they have exhibited when the battery is low on power/out and reinstalled are unlike anything I have ever experienced with any other car I have ever owned. Things that, at first glance, would not seem to have any correlation to the battery.

If I recall correctly, there were various lights on in the Freestyle after the battery got to the point it couldn't start the car. New battery, they all disappeared.

And also while on the fuel cut off switch, the inertia switch in my Freestyle was tripped once (and only once) when I backed the car out of the garage and parked it on the driveway. The driveway had a slight incline, but it was something I had done many times before. I pulled it back in the garage later that day and it refused to start the next morning.

You mentioned in your first post that " it's as if the starter is doing the rapid clicking noise like when the solenoid is going out"... re-asking js88's question, does it turn over and then start clicking?

I am not saying there isn't something more serious wrong with the car, but don't give up on the simple stuff (battery and fuel cut off).

Brad

suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:28 pm

Hopefully I don't convolute this, but I may have an answer. I put the code reader on it and got P2111 Throttle Actuator Control System Stuck Open. Figured I'd try and start the car and it fires right up, but when I press the gas pedal the engine doesn't rev up. And when I press the brake the TC and ABS lights no longer come on. So that's leading somewhere useful...

So far Google is pointing me towards replacing the entire throttle body but I'd like to get your opinions before I start throwing precious money at it. Is there a sensor I can replace instead?

suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:32 pm

brad e wrote:
Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:35 am
Hi suziandmikec,

Don't rule out the battery. I have four Ford vehicles, and the symptoms they have exhibited when the battery is low on power/out and reinstalled are unlike anything I have ever experienced with any other car I have ever owned. Things that, at first glance, would not seem to have any correlation to the battery.

If I recall correctly, there were various lights on in the Freestyle after the battery got to the point it couldn't start the car. New battery, they all disappeared.

And also while on the fuel cut off switch, the inertia switch in my Freestyle was tripped once (and only once) when I backed the car out of the garage and parked it on the driveway. The driveway had a slight incline, but it was something I had done many times before. I pulled it back in the garage later that day and it refused to start the next morning.

You mentioned in your first post that " it's as if the starter is doing the rapid clicking noise like when the solenoid is going out"... re-asking js88's question, does it turn over and then start clicking?

I am not saying there isn't something more serious wrong with the car, but don't give up on the simple stuff (battery and fuel cut off).

Brad
It turned over at first then started clicking. It was on the charger for a long time and starts now but no response from the gas pedal. I've felt like the battery has been starting to go on me lately and this reinforces my hunch.

suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:03 pm

So it looks like the throttle position sensor is around $50ish and a whole new throttle body is about $160 and up. If it's just a sensor then I'll replace it tomorrow, if I need the whole throttle body I'll have to wait till pay day on Friday which is annoying since we're borrowing a friends car to hold us over.

As far as driving over the pile of ice, I'm thinking now that was just a coincidence. All this happened literally as I was pulling from the county road into our driveway and there is some ice from the plow there so I just assumed that did something.

ds32928
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by ds32928 » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:19 pm

If you have checked the connector on the TPS on the side of the throttle body, and with the car off, remove the intake snorkle off the throttle body and see if the butterfly is really stuck open. Do not try to move it by hand, if the TPS motor isnt trash already you can damage it by moving the butterfly by hand with the battery connected. If its not stuck open, I would try the neg. battery disconnect one more time.
With the engine cold, remove the neg. battery cable, then reconnect the neg battery cable to the battery post. With no accessories on, no radio, etc. turn the key to the on position. The ECU will try to sweep the throttle butterfly from closed to open and back to closed. After waiting 10 secs, start the car and let it warm up to normal temp. Step on the brake and put it in gear for one minute, then drive 10 miles or so. Turning the AC on is part of the ECU relearning procedure, but it might not run if its below 30 degrees.

brad e
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by brad e » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:56 am

It’s worth your time to watch both parts of this YouTube video if you are going to investigate a possible throttle body/position sensor issue.

https://youtu.be/zfeKG3Kph4k

suziandmikec
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:51 pm

So before reading the last two posts, I went ahead and removed the throttle body. Initial inspection is its greasy on the intake manifold side and clean on the airbox side. The electrical connector was very firmly connected, it actually took me as long to unplug it without breaking it as it did to take everything else apart. When I shake around the entire throttle body I can hear a rattle inside the plastic housing...possible broken gear or something? I'm a little nervous to take the plastic cover off in case a spring comes unsprung. Also, on the butterfly valve there is some play from its "resting" position to being truly fully closed. I feel like thats probably normal otherwise it would suffocate the engine, right?

I'll watch the youtube videos brad e linked to and hopefully I didn't muck something up!

Reprogramming the AC probably isn't an option.....I'm in north Idaho and might hit the high 20s if the clouds burn out today.

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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by suziandmikec » Wed Feb 20, 2019 8:34 pm

In the second video from above he tests continuity on his throttle body motor, which I did and got a reading of 2.4 ohms (open circuit would indicate bad motor). So I went ahead and took off the plastic cover and everything looks good, the teeth on the gears were all intact and everything. So I stuck it back on the car and turned it to the on position without starting it. I took this video of me slowy, very very slowly, sorry about that, pressing the gas pedal and releasing. It opens fully but makes a horrible sound nearest the closed position. I took a video for your reference. When I did start the car it ran super rough like in the first video above and still no revving when I press the gas. What should I look at next?

https://youtu.be/mAIPkiA6fxE

ds32928
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Re: TC and ABS lights w/ brake pedal, not starting

Post by ds32928 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:19 pm

The clicking butterfly chattering is after the throttle body snorkel is back in place and letting the ECU relearn the fuel tables by disconnecting the neg. battery cable and then turning the key on and let the PCM sweep the throttle body butterfly open/closed to find its full range. When the butterfly chatters, it like the PCM doesnt know where closed is.

EDIT: also at the bottom of this thread viewtopic.php?t=3506 it was mentioned that there is a separate throttle position sensor on the gas pedal. Try checking the contacts on that connector. Im wondering too, is your battery now fully charged or is it low again?

From this link: yourmechanic.com/article/p2111-obd-ii-trouble-code-throttle-actuator-control-system-stuck-open-by-robert-kulp

What causes the P2111 code?
This code is set when the PCM sees the throttle plate sticking in an open position. Usually this is due to a faulty TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). If this code is set and the throttle plate is actually stuck open, there will be other codes set and the TPS may actually be relaying the correct information to the computer.

What are the symptoms of the P2111 code?
If the throttle plate is actually stuck open, most likely the PCM will put the vehicle in an engine shutdown mode. If the PCM allows the motor to continue to run with the throttle plate open, the motor will idle excessively high making it unsafe to drive and possibly causing engine damage.

The most likely symptom will be the car will drive normally with the Check Engine Light on or the vehicle will go into an engine shutdown mode for safety reasons.

How does a mechanic diagnose the P2111 code?
To begin, the technician should confirm the throttle plate is actually stuck open. If the throttle plate moves when the gas pedal moves, the next thing to check is the signal from the TPS to the computer.


This is done by watching scan data as the throttle pedal is depressed. If the TPS data on the scanner does not react to throttle pedal input, a pinpoint test should be performed at the TPS. A pinpoint test requires a multimeter to directly test the resistance value and or voltages at the TPS. Each manufacturer will have a different design for these systems therefore the specific test procedures will vary.

On the other hand, if the throttle plate does not move when the gas pedal is depressed and released, and the throttle plate is actually not moving, the scanner should again be used to check all other data that is used by the PCM to calculate throttle plate position. The majority of the time, there will be other codes set if this condition exists.
Last edited by ds32928 on Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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