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LarryQW
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 3:08 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:51 am Posts: 76
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andysinnh wrote: I'm a little nervous now, since in addition to my medium-sized trailer that I tow, I also put a Stowaway2 covered cargo container into the hitch ( http://www.stowaway2.com) and it's pretty heavy just empty. One question on the bikes - 200lbs is quite a bit - did you hinge the rack down for access into the rear hatch at any point? I'm trying to determine whether it's a leverage/angle sort of thing putting the pressure on the hitch mounting points. But in any case it shows that we have to be careful about stress on that rearmost mounting point! andy I have a Yakima Holdup with the Plus 2 extension that sticks out pretty far from the back of the car. The rack is ~80 lbs, and I carry 4 bikes at ~30 lbs each. Although the rack has a long extension out the back, the load is distributed along the rack, rather than at the end. It doesn't help that I push down hard on the wheel ratchet arm to lock it into place. I can see the whole car and hitch move down about a foot between bending and the car suspension. I am now more gentle. I also think looking the way the frame ripped, the high force from using a screw to close the gap definitely put extreme stress on the welds and sheet metal. You see it broke like it would if the screw would pull the wall sideways. And just how much force do you think it takes to bend a Class III hitch and/or the sheet metal by over 1/4"?!! (I had to crank HARD with a big long 1/2" ratchet, stopping to rest a couple times!) In spite of what Hidden Hitch says, there's no doubt the gap was just way too big, causing way excessive stress. (No way they want to take responsibility for the repair, of course.) I should have returned the hitch or put another spacer plate in there upon installation, rather than crank down real hard. And the bike rack extension also had a lot of extreme force due to leverage. I suspect the two effects combined is what finally caused the break. Again, fortunately my welder fixed both issues in my repair, the strength and the gap issue. I wouldn't think your stowaway would have the same problems, but keep a watch on it.
_________________ Owner of Taurus X Limited - Ice Blue Metallic
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Today |
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Joined: 24 Oct 2004 02:26 pm Posts: N/A
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Wheelman
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 9:35 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:31 am Posts: 866 Location: Yorkton, Saskatchewan Canada
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I am not sure I should even be replying to this, but seeing the pictures, something doesn't seem to add up. I have an 05 Freestyle and the vehicle in the pictures is a 08 Taurus X and I don't think these two are the same. I also think the hitch to vehicle hook up is different, at least on the passenger side. I have two bolts through the frame and the hitch which makes it as solid as ever when bolted together. I don't think any weight put on there could cause such damage. The car would be much overloaded before that could happen. I haul a seven horse Honda tiller, an eight horse MTD snow blower as well as other heavy things which are much heavier then 2 bikes (you are talking regular bikes are you not)? From the pictures, it almost looks like you are not bolted to the frame of the car or did the frame bend as well? Also what gap are you referring to, did the hitch not make complete flat contact with the frame when raised into place?
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LarryQW
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sat Aug 15, 2009 10:48 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:51 am Posts: 76
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Wheelman wrote: I am not sure I should even be replying to this, but seeing the pictures, something doesn't seem to add up. I have an 05 Freestyle and the vehicle in the pictures is a 08 Taurus X and I don't think these two are the same. I also think the hitch to vehicle hook up is different, at least on the passenger side. I have two bolts through the frame and the hitch which makes it as solid as ever when bolted together. I don't think any weight put on there could cause such damage. The car would be much overloaded before that could happen. I haul a seven horse Honda tiller, an eight horse MTD snow blower as well as other heavy things which are much heavier then 2 bikes (you are talking regular bikes are you not)? From the pictures, it almost looks like you are not bolted to the frame of the car or did the frame bend as well? Also what gap are you referring to, did the hitch not make complete flat contact with the frame when raised into place? Taking your questions in order. 1. The hitch is bolted on the passenger side with two bolts into threaded nuts built into the rail. One goes through the side of the rail and is the one seen at the center-slightly-right of the picture. The other bolt goes in through the bottom, and is barely seen on the far left in the second (fixed) picture. I think the same hitch is indeed used for the Freestyle when I select it, but not sure. 2. The heavy weight on your trailer is actually on your trailer. The tongue weight should be about 10-15% of the trailer weight, or 200-300 lbs for the maximum 2000 lb trailer capacity. I also have 200 lbs or less with my bikes and rack. But if that load is put out several feet from the back, that long arm serves as a lever placing much more force on the bolts at the car. Say the bolt spread is 1 foot, then a 4 foot extension out can magnify the load from the bikes 4X at the smaller pivot point by the bolt. (Review your physics.) In contrast, the load from your trailer tongue is much closer to the bolts, maybe 1 foot back, with minimal leverage. So indeed a few bikes extended out with a lever effect can cause many times more load on that bolt than a 2000 lb loaded trailer, with leverage the other way (only 10% of the weight on the tongue). 3. If you hit my link for Yakima HoldUP above, you'll see I have four bikes that extend quite a ways out. The load is about 80 lbs for the rack, and 30 lbs for each beefy mountain bike. Math: 80 + 4x30=200 lbs. 4. The pictures I show are with the hitch removed so you can see the damage and repair. As shown, the lower frame sheet metal rail indeed bent, and popped off several weld spots, two welds between the sheet metal rail and top, and one weld to the back sheet metal. The sheet metal rail then also tore away from the other sheet metal part of the rail that held their welds. 5. Yes, the gap I mention was between the hitch (not shown) and the side rail. Since the Hidden Hitch was not quite as wide as the holes, I had to bolt in the drivers side first, that only has the bolts going in the bottom, and then use the side bolt on the passenger side (shown) to crank hard until the hitch was pulled (bent) over far enough to line up the final lower bolt on the passenger side. Again, I think the damage was a combination of the side stress from the hitch not matching well enough (~1/4" gap) and the heavy lever action of the bike extension. The beefed up repair has been doing well now. No issues at all yet, over many hundreds of miles of tests now. I'm driving 2000 miles this weekend to Oregon and back to San Jose, with four bikes and the family. That'll be a good final test.
_________________ Owner of Taurus X Limited - Ice Blue Metallic
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Wheelman
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 2:19 am |
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:31 am Posts: 866 Location: Yorkton, Saskatchewan Canada
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Sorry, I forgot to mention, I do not use a trailer, it is a hitch carrier that is carried in the receiver hitch only, no wheels at all.
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LarryQW
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:28 am |
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:51 am Posts: 76
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Wheelman wrote: Sorry, I forgot to mention, I do not use a trailer, it is a hitch carrier that is carried in the receiver hitch only, no wheels at all. Oh, wow, then I sure hope you don't have a problem. What is the weight of your machines, do you think? Can you lift them by hand? Carrying objects without a trailer is problematic. First, the receiver weight limit is usually not specified, but generally accepted to be less than 15% of towing maximum - or 2000x15% = 300 lbs in this case. The limit is mostly for vehicle handling, from what I've read. Second, the torque or crowbar effect is way more critical then the actual dead weight on the receiver strength, especially as the object is extended further behind the vehicle. I've often seen this problem with bike racks that extend out far behind the car, and bought a Class III hitch for that reason, even though a bike load was way below any limit. Again, none of this receiver torque is ever specified by manufacturers, even though it could make nasty problems. You just have to be very careful. The manufacture likely bases the towing limit on overall car handling, as well as brakes, engine, and transmission capability in horizontal acceleration, turning and braking, rather than by receiver strength. So I suspect we can go higher weight on the receiver than the simple 15% of trailer weight calculations, but there is a limit somewhere. I certainly passed it.
_________________ Owner of Taurus X Limited - Ice Blue Metallic
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andysinnh
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:21 am |
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:21 pm Posts: 956 Location: Merrimack, NH
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Wait a sec - does your hitch have some of the mounting bolts into the SIDE of the uniframe rail? ON mine (Curt 2" receiver on an 07 Freestyle) all 4 mounting bolts are into the bottom of the frame - none from the side. Is this a change for the TX over the FS? In my case, nothing put sideways pressure on the frame rails when mounting the hitch - just 4 bolts from the bottom that I torqued with the torque wrench to the appropriate lb/ft .
I think I understand - you needed to tighten the hitch to the frame, and it just slightly pulled it enough to put pressure on the frame. Now it makes sense to me!
I'll take a photo or 2 of my setup today so we can compare!
andy
_________________ 3-"Ford" and a Honda Family in NH
05 Accord LX Sedan Auto 71k miles 07 Ford Freestyle Limited AWD 42k miles 07 Mercury Montego Premier AWD 19k miles 04 Mazda Tribute LX AWD 91k miles
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Wheelman
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 11:43 am |
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:31 am Posts: 866 Location: Yorkton, Saskatchewan Canada
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My hitch is a Hidden Hitch (trade name) and no, I don't have any side bolts, that is why I asked if the hitch fit flat against the frame of the car? Also when I raised the hitch in place, it fit like a glove with the holes perfectly aligned and like anything else I hand installed all the bolts first as far as I could then, I used a socket wrench with a ratchet to step tighten (each bolt a little more and more alternately), then a final tightening with a 10 or 12 inch handle, (I don't have a torque wrench), I gave it almost all I could but, I never used the breaker bar. I just checked today and I don't have any signs of stress, etc. To answer your question, there is no way I can lift any of my machines by hand, I have a home made carrier aluminum diamond plate with a 2"X2" main beam and support strap side to side across the main beam. It has a flip down end on the passenger side and I drive the machine onto the carrier. I had to do a home made one because I couldn't get one that was at least 26" deep for the machine wheels to fit inside. The carriers are usually rated for 300 to 500 lbs. I'm not sure if that takes into account the actual hitch mounting or not.
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LarryQW
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Aug 16, 2009 4:36 pm |
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Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 12:51 am Posts: 76
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andysinnh wrote: Wait a sec - does your hitch have some of the mounting bolts into the SIDE of the uniframe rail? Yes, on the passenger side, one bolt goes in through the side of the uniframe rail - and it's the side hole shown in the picture I posted. I used this side bolt to close the gap on the side. The T-X must be different from the Freestyle. The damage pattern shows the two lower welds to the back remained good while the side and top welds to the side panel popped off. So the damage appears to me more from the side wall being pulled out, to be expected from that side force, rather than from the bike's downward torque, which should have taken out the lower welds too. As such, I suspect it was this extreme side force as much or more than the bike torque out the back. But I won't get Hidden Hitch to admit it. (Wonder why.  )
_________________ Owner of Taurus X Limited - Ice Blue Metallic
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desslok74
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:17 am |
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 am Posts: 4
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So this has been one of the worst installs ever! First, I lost the fishing wires so I had to improvise using lacing wire. I finally got all of the bolts in on the passenger side.
But I can't get the1/2 offset hole plate to pass through the access hole at the end of the driver's side frame rail. The hole looks like it got smushed. What's worse, there's not enough clearance for the mounting surface of the hitch. What do you think? Was this car rear-ended? Everything else looks fine. Really not sure what to do at this point.
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desslok74
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:22 am |
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 am Posts: 4
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Forgot to mention, it's a Valley model 82243.
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andysinnh
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 8:49 am |
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Joined: Sun Apr 29, 2007 8:21 pm Posts: 956 Location: Merrimack, NH
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desslok74 wrote: So this has been one of the worst installs ever! First, I lost the fishing wires so I had to improvise using lacing wire. I finally got all of the bolts in on the passenger side.
But I can't get the1/2 offset hole plate to pass through the access hole at the end of the driver's side frame rail. The hole looks like it got smushed. What's worse, there's not enough clearance for the mounting surface of the hitch. What do you think? Was this car rear-ended? Everything else looks fine. Really not sure what to do at this point. Definitely been damaged at some point - any signs from the outside? Looks pushed in from the back. andy
_________________ 3-"Ford" and a Honda Family in NH
05 Accord LX Sedan Auto 71k miles 07 Ford Freestyle Limited AWD 42k miles 07 Mercury Montego Premier AWD 19k miles 04 Mazda Tribute LX AWD 91k miles
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desslok74
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 10:58 am |
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 am Posts: 4
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It looks perfectly normal from the outside and from many other angles underneath. I wonder if the damage occured at the factory. Do you think it could be pounded out?
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Wheelman
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 2:02 pm |
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Joined: Fri May 20, 2005 11:31 am Posts: 866 Location: Yorkton, Saskatchewan Canada
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Yes, you definitely have a repaired damage there. Three questions remain. (1) What is the surface like on the other side of the frame, hole? If it is smooth then you could just drill out the hole to fit the bolt. If it is globed with weld the bolt will not sit squarely and may cause problems. (2) Is the weld strong enough to do the job of the original? and (3) Is the hole perfectly aligned to fit the hitch? Or is that part of the frame pushed out of alignment?
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desslok74
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Sun Jan 31, 2010 7:00 pm |
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Joined: Sun Jan 31, 2010 1:44 am Posts: 4
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The only way to know the extent of the damage would be to pull the bumper. At this point, I think I'm going to take it to a body shop and probably the trailer store I bought it from to get an opinion. It definitely won't fit without modification to the hitch, or frame and I have to be concerned about safety.
I wonder if one of the side-mount hitches would fit better - the ones that bolt to the side of the driver's side frame rail.
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MaxFreestyle
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Post subject: Re: installing a hitch Posted: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:09 pm |
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Joined: Tue Mar 23, 2010 2:05 pm Posts: 2
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